Non-Christian Sources

Turning to the second category of evidence for the historicity of Jesus, we now evaluate McDowell's evidence from non-Christian sources: Jewish sources and Pagan sources. Again we shall consider first the evidence as stated by McDowell in ETDAV and then briefly interact with objections to his evidence.

Jewish Sources

McDowell quotes two lines of evidence for the historicity of Jesus from Jewish sources.

1. Josephus provides independent confirmation to the life of Jesus. The most important non-Christian witness to the historical Jesus is Josephus, who wrote five works in Greek: Life, his autobiography; Contra Apion, a defense of Judaism; The Jewish War, an eyewitness account of the revolt against Rome (66-74 CE);Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades; and The Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jews from Adam to his generation. McDowell cites two references to Jesus in The Jewish Antiquities; I will discuss them in reverse order.

(a) The reference to James as the brother of Jesus. Josephus described how the high priest Ananus took advantage of the death of the Roman governor Festus in 62 CE to organize a mob to stone James. McDowell mentions this passage because Josephus identifies James as "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ:"

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought it before the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.[17]

According to Josephus scholar Louis Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged."[18] However, since there a few scholars who deny the authenticity of this passage, let's consider the arguments for and against authenticity.

Of course, McDowell does not consider any of those arguments in ETDAV, but in his book He Walked Among Us (co-authored with Bill Wilson) he presents three arguments in favor of the authenticity of this passage.[19] Let's consider each argument in turn:

(1) "The phrase 'James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ' is too noncommittal to have been inserted by a later Christian interpolator who would have desired to assert the messiahship of Jesus more definitely as well as to deny the charges against James." This is probably the single most important argument in favor of authenticity; in my opinion, McDowell and Wilson are right about this. The phrase is incidental to the story. If this passage were an interpolation, it is surprising that so little is said about Jesus and James.[20]

(2) "Origen refers to this passage in his Commentary on Matthew 10.17, giving evidence that it was in Josephus prior to his time (approximately A.D. 200)." This is true but inconclusive. The fact that the passage was referenced by Origen around 200 is simply inconclusive as evidence for the authenticity; that still leaves well over a century when the passage could have been interpolated.

(3) The passage identifies 'Jesus' as the one 'called the Christ,' which "betrays an awareness that 'Messiah' was not a proper name, and therefore reflects Jewish rather than Christian usage." Unfortunately, this is also inconclusive. From the fact that Josephus needed to distinguish this Jesus from other people in his book named Jesus, it does not follow that the phrase "called the Christ" was the most likely way Josephus could have identified Jesus. Josephus could have also said, "the one who was crucified by Pilate," since Josephus' earlier reference to Jesus (see below) did mention that point.[21]

McDowell and Wilson also have occasion to consider an objection by G.A. Wells to this passage, that "it is unlikely that Josephus would have mentioned Jesus here simply--as it were--in passing, when he mentions him nowhere else."[22] In response, McDowell and Wilson argue that Wells' "statement demonstrates that even he recognizes that the James passage is incomplete without the Testimonium."[23] However, it is false that the James passage is incomplete without the Testimonium. Just read the passage: the meaning of the passage is quite clear without reference to the Testimonium. Moreover, McDowell's and Wilson's rejoinder completely neglects the primary flaw in Wells' objection. Even if we assume that the Testimonium is completely inauthentic, there is simply no reason to expect Josephus to have said anything more about Jesus.

But the above objection is hardly the only objection to the authenticity of this passage, and it is certainly not Wells' only objection. In Wells' 1982 book, The Historical Evidence for Jesus, Wells objects that "the Greek does not have 'so-called' but 'him called Christ,' and this, so far from being non-Christian, is the exact wording of Mt. 1:16."[24] Furthermore, in Wells' later books, he presents additional objections to the authenticity of the passage.[25] So while I think McDowell's and Wilson'sconclusion concerning this passage is correct, their discussion is incomplete. Readers interested in a complete summary of the debate concerning this shorter passage will need to go elsewhere.

(b) The Testimonium Flavianum probably contained an authentic, independent witness to Jesus. Josephus was known as "Flavius Josephus" from his patrons the Flavian emperors, Vespasian and his sons Titus and Domitian. Testimonium Flavianum means literally "Testimony of Flavius" and refers to Antiquities 18.3.3 §63-64:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Unlike Josephus' shorter reference to Jesus, this passage is extremely controversial. Indeed, even McDowell admits this when he writes that the Testimonium Flavianum is "a hotly-contested quotation."[26] Most scholars suspect there has been at least some tampering with the text on the basis of some or all of the italicized sections. Thus scholarly opinion can be divided into three camps: those who accept the entire passage as authentic; those who reject the entire passage as a Christian interpolation into the text (perhaps authored by the fourth-century church historian Eusebius); and those who believe that the original text contained an authentic reference to Jesus but was later embellished by Christian copyists.

In He Walked Among Us, McDowell and Wilson seem to favor the third option. They begin their discussion of the evidence by considering several arguments favoring the authenticity of the Testimonium: (i) the passage exists in all extant manuscripts of Josephus; (ii) Eusebius quotes it around the beginning of the fourth century; (iii) the vocabulary and style are basically consistent with other parts of Josephus; and (iv) the passage blames for the crucifixion of Jesus on Pilate rather than on Jewish authorities.[27] However, contrary to what McDowell and Wilson assert, not all of these arguments are "strong." (i) is irrelevant; the extant Greek manuscripts of Josephus' Antiquities all date to the tenth century or later![28] (ii) is also irrelevant; three centuries is still plenty of time for an interpolation. (iii) is inconclusive. While the vocabulary and style are basically consistent with the writings of Josephus, McDowell and Wilson present no evidence that the vocabulary and style of Josephus would have been hard to imitate.[29] Finally, (iv) is the one good argument in the bunch. Whereas the gospels tend to blame the Jews for Jesus' death, the Testimonium blames the Romans. Furthermore, it does not mention anything about Jewish authorities sentencing Jesus. It is difficult to explain how the hands of a Christian interpolator near the time of Eusebius would have left this intact.

McDowell and Wilson next consider several objections to the authenticity of the Testimonium: (i) it is unlikely that Josephus would have called Jesus the Messiah; (ii) it is unlikely that Josephus would have written the other italicized phrases; (iii) the passage is never quoted by Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, or Origen, despite its enormous apologetic value; and (iv) the passage interrupts the narrative flow of the surrounding text. I find McDowell's and Wilson's answers to all four of these objections convincing. As they correctly point out, removing the italicized sections from the passage answers objections (i)-(iii).[30] Turning to (iv), I think McDowell's and Wilson's answer is incomplete. In response to Gordon Stein's objection that "the passage comes in the middle of a collection of stories about calamities which have befallen the Jews,"[31] McDowell and Wilson rightly note that in Josephus' chapter containing the Testimonium, "[o]nly two of the five paragraphs ... are true calamities."[32] While this is certainly correct, this does not answer the objection by Wells (quoted by McDowell and Wilson), that "if the passage is excised, the argument runs on in proper sequence."[33] Given that this objection is a common one, it deserves an answer.

My answer would be as follows. Even if the passage were out of context, that would still not make it likely that the passage is an interpolation. It was common for ancient writers to insert extraneous texts or passages which seemingly interrupt the flow of the narrative (whereas today the material would be placed in a footnote):

A further main reason why ancient historiography differed from its modern counterparts was provided by digressions. They were far more frequent in Greek and Roman writings than in our own. For one thing, there was a simple technical explanation for such digressions. Nowadays we have footnotes; the ancients did not, so that what would now be relegated to a footnote had to appear in the text. But there was also a deeper philosophical explanation. The Greek and Roman historians wanted to supply background....[34]

Moreover, as E. Mary Smallwood argues, this was particularly characteristic of Josephus:

One feature of Josephus' writing which may be disconcerting to the modern reader and appear inartistic is the way in which at times the narrative is proceeding at a spanking pace when it is unceremoniously cut short by a paragraph or a longer passage of material unrelated or only marginally related to the subject in hand, and then resumed equally abruptly. Basically, these interruptions are of two types, with different reasons behind them, and it may therefore be helpful if a word is said here about the conventions of ancient historiography, which differed considerably from ours.

One type of interruption, such as a sudden move to another theatre of war, occurs because ancient historians usually wrote annalistically---literally, by years ...

A quite different explanation lies behind other interruptions to the flow of the narrative. The ancient world never invented those useful lay-bys in which the modern author can park essential but intractable material, and thus avoid breaking the main thread of his argument, the footnote and the appendix ... what we relegate to notes and appendixes appeared as digressions.[35]

But in fact I see no reason to believe the Testimonium occurs out of context. For example, New Testament scholar R.T. France has argued that Josephus is simply listing events that happened during or near Pilate's reign.[36] And Steve Mason thinks that Josephus is merely "trying to paint a picture of escalating tension for Jews around the world."[37] It is therefore unclear why the Testimonium is "out of context."

There was one objection which McDowell and Wilson did not discuss, but which I think deserves to be taken seriously by anyone who defends a reconstructed Testimonium. According to that objection, the fact that there has been any tampering with the text at all makes the entire passage suspect; a heavy burden of proof falls upon anyone who defends partial authenticity. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide what to think about this objection.

As further evidence for the authenticity of the Testimonium, McDowell and Wilson cite the Arabic version of the Testimonium preserved by tenth-century Bishop Agapius of Hierapolis in his World History. Schlomo Pines, the Israeli scholar who rediscovered the Arabic text, translates the passage as follows:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.[38]

McDowell and Wilson believe that this text "provides textual justification for excising the Christian passages and demonstrating that Josephus probably discussed Jesus in Antiquities 18."[39]

However, this text is far from conclusive. Although McDowell and Wilson claim the Arabic version actually dates to the fourth century, they provide no defense or justification for that claim.[40] Yet even if the Arabic version can be dated to the fourth century, the text would still not provide any additional evidence for the authenticity of the Testimonium. Again, three centuries would still have been plenty of time for the Testimonium to have been interpolated. Indeed, for all we know, the extant Greek versions and the Arabic version have a common source, perhaps the original interpolation itself! Though McDowell and Wilson quote Pines' translation of the text, they neglect to mention that Pines himself is quite cautious about claiming that the Arabic text represents Josephus' original. Indeed, Pines admits there are other explanations for the text besides the one favored by McDowell and Wilson.[41]

In conclusion, I think McDowell is right to appeal to the Testimonium as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus. However, given the centuries-old debate over how much, if any, of the Testimonium is authentic, McDowell's mere quotation of the full Testimonium (combined with an acknowledgement that the quotation is "hotly-disputed") is simply inexcusable. By itself, the unqualified quotation of the Testimonium in ETDAV gives readers the misleading impression that, although there is some unspecified controversy concerning the passage, McDowell accepts the full authenticity of the Testimonium. Furthermore, since skepticism concerning the authenticity of the Testimonium is fairly widespread, I think McDowell did a disservice to his mostly Christian audience by not answering these objections. Indeed, if McDowell had made it clear in ETDAV that his own view is that the Testimonium is partially authentic, that would have answered most of the objections. Of course, McDowell and Wilson have discussed the objections at some length in their 1988 book, He Walked Among Us. But many of their arguments for authenticity are weak; their response to one of the objections against authenticity is incomplete; and they neglected what I consider to be a very serious objection against their view.

2. The Talmud contains inconclusive evidence of Jesus. The Talmud [42] is a massive compilation divided into two parts, the Mishna [43] and the Gemara [44]. The Mishna was codified by Rabbi Jehudah ha-Nasi circa 200 CE but was not actually committed to writing until the fifth century; it discusses numerous subjects, including festivals, sacred things, etc. The Gemara was completed in the fifth century and is really a commentary on the Mishna.

McDowell cites six lines of evidence for the historical Jesus from the Talmudic writings:

(a) The Tol'doth Yeshu. At the outset, note that the Tol'doth Yeshu is not in any sense a part of the Talmud; in ETDAV McDowell erroneously lists the Tol'doth Yeshu as if it were a part of the Talmud. (In fairness to McDowell, I should note that he does not repeat this error in his later book, He Walked Among Us; in that volume, the Tol'doth Yeshu is listed under the heading of "References from the Rabbis."[45]) Anyway, McDowell states that the Tol'doth Yeshu is a reference to Jesus; in that document "Jesus is referred to as `Ben Pandera'".[46] Yet Joseph Klausner--who McDowell relies on heavily in his section on the Talmud--believed theTol'doth Yeshu "contains no history worth the name."[47] Furthermore, Klausner stated, "The present Hebrew Tol'Doth Yeshu, even in its simplest form, is not earlier than the present Yosippon, i.e. it was not composed before the tenth century. Therefore it cannot possibly possess any historical value nor in any way be used as material for the life of Jesus."[48] Even on McDowell's view, this is more than enough time for legendary development. And in He Walked Among Us, McDowell and Wilson list the Tol'doth Yeshu among the "unreliable [rabbinic] references to Jesus."

(b) The Babylonian Talmud. McDowell next lists the opinion of the Amoraim that Jesus was hanged on the eve of Passover.[49] However, Klausner thinks that theAmoraim traditions "can have no objective historical value (since by the time of the Amoraim there was certainly no clear recollection of Jesus' life and works)."[50] Morris Goldstein states that the passage "cannot be fixed at a definite date within the Tannaitic time-area."[51] The value of this passage as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus is therefore uncertain.

(c) The tradition about Jesus as the son of Pantera. Commenting on the Talmud's references to Jesus as "Ben Pandera (or 'Ben Pantere')" and "Jeshu ben Pandera," McDowell writes, "Many scholars say `pandera' is a play on words, a travesty on the Greek word for virgin `parthenos,' calling him `son of a virgin.'"[52] However, "Jesus is never referred to as `the son of the virgin' in the Christian material preserved from the first century of the Church (30-130), nor in the second century apologists."[53] As Herford argues, this passage "cannot be earlier than the beginning of the fourth century, and is moreover a report of what was said in Babylonia, not Palestine."[54]

(d) The Baraitha describing hanging Yeshu on the eve of Passover. McDowell considers "of great historical value" the following Jewish tradition about the hanging of Jesus:

On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover.[55]

It is unclear whether this passage refers to Jesus. As Goldstein admits, "the possibility of the Jesus named in the Talmud being someone other than Jesus of Nazareth, and identified as such only because of confusion, cannot be entirely dismissed."[56] But even if the passage does refer to the Jesus of the New Testament, according to Goldstein, "it is of no help one way or the other in the question of the historicity of Jesus."[57]

Following this Baraitha are some remarks of the Amora 'Ulla, a disciple of R. Yochanan and who lived in Palestine at the end of the third century. McDowell quotes these remarks as follows:

'Ulla said: And do you suppose that for [Yeshu of Nazareth] there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him. It is otherwise with Yeshu, for he was near to the civil authority.[58]

Both McDowell and Klausner conclude, "The Talmud authorities do not deny that Jesus worked signs and wonders, but they look upon them as acts of sorcery."[59] However, given our ignorance of both the date of these passages as well as the author's sources, we simply can't assume these passages represent independent traditions about Jesus.

(e) Talmudic references to the disciples of Jesus. McDowell writes, "Sanhedrin 43a also makes references to the disciples of Jesus."[60] Turning to Joseph Klausner, we read:

Immediately after this Baraita comes a second (Sanh. 43a): Jesus had five disciples, Mattai, Naqai, Netser, Buni and Todah.[61]

Yet as Klausner notes, "In any case the Baraita itself is lacking in accuracy, for although the names are those of real disciples, they include some who were not disciples of Jesus himself, but disciples of the second generation."[62] In other words, the list of names is simply a list of Christians, not a list of contemporaries of Jesus.[63]

Laible has suggested that "the story refers to the prosecution of Christians under Bar Cocheba"[64] because (1) the story occurs in the same passage which describes the death of Jesus and (2) "the key to the understanding of the statements there made about Jesus in the anti-Christian hatred of Bar Cocheba, and more especially of Aqiba, his chief supporter."[65] If that is the case, then the passage can be dated to the second century, which would prevent it from providing independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

(f) The reference to such-an-one as a bastard of an adulteress. McDowell, following the lead of Klausner, cites the following passage from the Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 4.49a:

R. Shimeon ben Azzai said: 'I found a geneaological roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, Such-an-one is a bastard of an adulteress.'"[66]

McDowell takes this to be a reliable reference to Jesus.[67]

However, there are good reasons to doubt that this passage represents an independent tradition about Jesus. First, the passage comes from the Babylonian Talmud, which dates to around the sixth century. Second, the gospel of Matthew begins with the words, "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ."[68] This "genealogical roll" or "Book of Pedigrees" may have been influenced by the gospels. Third, this passage fits the pattern of Rabbinical polemic. Thus this reference may not be based upon an independent source. Of course, it's also possible that this passage was based on independent sources. The available evidence does not favor one view over the other; thus, we can't use this passage as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

(g) The reference to the 'hire of a harlot.' Finally, McDowell quotes the following passage from the Talmud:

He answered, Akiba, you have reminded me! Once I was walking along the upper market (Tosefta reads 'street') of Sepphoris and found one [of the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth] and Jacob of Kefar Sekanya (Tosefta reads 'Sakkanin') was his name. He said to me, It is written in your Law, 'Thou shalt not bring the hire of a harlot, etc.' What was to be done with it--a latrine for the High Priest? But I answered nothing. He said to me, so [Jesus of Nazareth] taught me (Tosefta reads, 'Yeshu ben Pantere'): 'For of the hire of a harlot hath she gathered them, and unto the hire of a harlot shall they return'; from the place of filth they come, and unto the place of filth they shall go. And the saying pleased me, and because of this I was arrested for Minuth. And I transgressed against what is written in the Law; 'Keep thy way far from here'--that is Minuth; 'and come not nigh the door of her house'--that is the civil government.[69]

What is crucial to the evidential force of this passage is the words in parentheses; yet McDowell never defends them. He simply quotes Klausner, who in turn quoted an obscure, 19th century manuscript.[70] Nonetheless, most scholars would reject the passage as McDowell has it:

To establish the reliability of this passage, Klausner must engage in a contorted argument that includes an appeal to Hegesippus' account of the martyrdom of James--something that would not inspire confidence in many scholars today. Joachim Jeremias weighs the pros and cons of the argument about authenticity and decides in the negative--rightly in my view. The saying is a polemical invention meant to make Jesus look ridiculous.[71]

In conclusion, the value of the Talmud as a witness to the historicity of Jesus is at best uncertain. John Meier argues that the Talmud contains "no clear or probable reference to Jesus."[72] And Twelftree states that the Talmud is "of almost no value to the historian in his search for the historical Jesus."[73] Of course, as McDowell and Wilson point out, the Talmud never questions the historicity of Jesus.[74] But that fact cannot itself be used as evidence for the historicity of Jesus, for two reasons. First, as Goldstein points out,

we must be careful not to make too much of [the] argument [that had Jews doubted the historicity of Jesus, they would have said so]. It is not conclusive. Can we attribute to ancient peoples our modern concept of myth, or historicity? Furthermore, this manner of logic lends itself to fallacious extension whereby one could attempt to prove that whatever the early Jewish tradition does not specifically mention in contradiction to the Christian tradition must have taken place.[75]

Second, the Talmud can only provide independent confirmation of Jesus's existence if it relied on independent sources. Given our ignorance of the sources for theTalmud as well as its late date, it simply can't be used as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

Conclusion

I think there is ample evidence to conclude there was a historical Jesus. To my mind, the New Testament alone provides sufficient evidence for the historicity of Jesus, but the writings of Josephus also provide two independent, authentic references to Jesus.

As for McDowell's other sources for the historicity of Jesus, I think they are inconclusive. There is no evidence that the written works of the church fathers were based on independent sources. Tertullian's reference to Tiberius is inconclusive, as is Africanus' references to Thallus. Africanus' reference to Phlegon is probably an interpolation. The Talmud is too late to be of any value in establishing the historicity of Jesus. Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Lucian are not independent witnesses to the historicity of Jesus. Suetonius did not refer to Jesus. And Mara Bar-Serapion's letter is worthless as a witness to the historicity of Jesus.[150]

Appendix: Hadrian

There is one final reference I have not mentioned until this point because McDowell does not include it in ETDAV. However, I chose to discuss this reference in an appendix because McDowell and Wilson do quote the letter in their 1988 book, He Walked Among Us. The reference is the following letter preserved by Eusebius and purportedly written by Hadrian:

I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be passed by without examination, so that these men may neither by harassed, nor opportunity of malicious proceedings be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly evince their charges against the Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not by mere petitions, and mere outcries against the Christians. For it is far more proper, if any one would bring an accusation, that you should examine it.[151]

McDowell and Wilson believe this letter is "indirect evidence confirming the same things Pliny had recorded."

Unfortunately, just as Pliny's letter does not provide independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus, the above letter preserved by Eusebius also does not provide evidence for the historicity of Jesus. The letter quoted by Eusebius simply states that there were Christians who were tried under Hadrian, which nobody denies. Furthermore, the above letter is found only in the writings of Eusebius. Given that Eusebius' reliability is itself doubtful, we can't even be sure that Hadrian ever actually wrote the letter Eusebius attributes to him!

Notes

[1] Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1979), pp. 81-87.

[2] Ibid., p. ix.

[3] In other words, the mere claim that "Jesus existed" is not an extraordinary claim and therefore does not require extraordinary evidence.

[4] See G.A. Wells, The Jesus Myth (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court, 1999).

[5] Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1979), p. 81.

[6] Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, He Walked Among Us: Evidence for the Historical Jesus (San Benardino, CA: Here's Life, 1988).

[7] Ibid., p. 88: "[The early writers] cited the existence of government records." McDowell claims elsewhere (1979, p. 85) that Justin Martyr had access to "the imperial archives" of Pontius Pilate.

[8] Commenting on Paul's claim that the Old Testament provided "advance, positive information about Jesus," Grant writes that "Justin Martyr in the second century AD could once again furnish a long list of proof texts including some apparently fictitious examples asseverating that 'we do this because with our own eyes we see these things having happened and happening as was prophesied.'" See Grant, p. 14.

[9] Felix Scheidweiler in New Testament Apocrypha (Revised edition, edited by Wilhem Scheemelcher, translated by R. McL. Wilson, Volume I, Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1991, p. 501).

[10] McDowell and Wilson 198, pp. 24, 85.

[11] I owe this point to Richard Carrier.

[12] McDowell and Wilson, p. 89.

[13] Tertullian, Apology, V.2.

[14] Scott T. Carroll, "Tiberius" Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 6, p. 550.

[15] I owe this point to Richard Carrier.

[16] I owe this point to Richard Carrier.

[17] Antiquities 20.9.1 §200-201. Cited by McDowell 1979, p. 83.

[18] Louis H. Feldman, "Josephus" Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990-1.

[19] Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, He Walked Among Us (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1988), p. 39.

[20] Evans 1995, p. 106.

[21] Earl Doherty, "Josephus Unbound" (<URL:http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/supp10.htm>, n.d.), section 4.

[22] G.A. Wells, Did Jesus Exist? (London: Pemberton, 1973), p. 11.

[23] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 40.

[24] G.A. Wells, The Historical Evidence for Jesus (Buffalo: Prometheus, 1982), p. 211.

[25] See G.A. Wells, Who Was Jesus? A Critique of the New Testament Record (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court, 1989), p. 22; idem, The Jesus Legend (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court, 1996), pp. 52-53, 225 n. 19; Wells 1999, pp. 217-21.

[26] McDowell 1979, p. 82.

[27] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 41.

[28] Doherty, n.d.

[29] Doherty quotes Guignebert as stating, "It may be admitted that the style of Josephus has been cleverly imitated, a not very difficult matter." (In contrast, it is generally agreed that the style of Tacitus would have been much more difficult for an interpolator to imitate.) See Doherty, n.d.

[30] Concerning (iii), the reconstructed Testimonium probably would not have been very useful to the early church fathers. Consider the following reconstruction of the Testimonium:

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, for he was a teacher. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. And when Pilate condemned him to the cross, the leading men among us accused him, those who loved him from the first did not cease to do so. And to the present the tribe of Christians, named after this person, has not disappeared.

On the assumption that the above reconstruction resembles the authentic Testimonium, the text establishes nothing more than the historicity of Jesus and his crucifixion. Since we have no evidence that the historicity of Jesus or his crucifixion were questioned in the first three centuries, we should not be surprised that the passage was never quoted until the fourth century. Wells (1999, p. 201) notes that Justin, in his Dialogue with Trypho, 8, was probably not debating the existence of Jesus, but whether Jesus was important enough to have been the Messiah. Likewise, the fact that Origen simply expressed disappointment that Josephus "did not believe in Jesus as Christ" but never quoted the Testimonium is consistent with the view that the reconstructed Testimonium is authentic.

In direct response to my argument, Doherty argues that, nevertheless, the reconstructed Testimonium would have been useful to the early church fathers as it was "the sole example of a non-negative comment on Christianity by an outsider until Constantine's conversion." But what in the passage would have been useful? As it stands, absolutely nothing; again, there is no evidence that the historicity of Jesus and his crucifixion were in dispute at the time. Thus, Doherty is forced to conjecture that the church fathers would have "put a spin on" on the Testimonium. In other words, the passage would have been useful to the church fathers if and only if they distorted it! While that is certainly possible, such speculation hardly justifies rejecting the entire Testimonium as an interpolation. See Doherty, n.d.

[31] Gordon Stein, "The Jesus of History: A Reply to Josh McDowell" American Rationalist July/August 1982, p. 2. Republished electronically at <URL:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.html>

[32] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 42.

[33] Wells 1973, p. 10.

[34] Michael Grant, Greek & Roman Historians: Information and Misinformation (New York: Routledge, 1995), p. 53.

[35] Josephus, "The Jewish Wars". Translated by G.A. Williamson. Revised with introduction by E. Mary Smallwood. Penguin Books, 1981, pp. 20-21.

[36] France 1986, p. 28.

[37] Steve Mason, Josephus and the New Testament (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1992), p. 164.

[38] Schlomo Pines, An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications (Jerusalem: Jerusalem Academic Press, 1971), p. 69. Quoted in McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 45.

[39] James H. Charlesworth, "Research on the Historical Jesus Today: Jesus and the Pseudepigrapha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Codices, Josephus, and Archaeology" Princeton Seminary Bulletin, vol. VI, no. 2, p. p. 110. Quoted in McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 45.

[40] Quoted in McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 45.

[41] Wells 1999, p. 214.

[42] Literally, "learning" or "instruction."

[43] Literally, "oral teaching."

[44] Literally, "completion."

[45] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 63.

[46] McDowell 1979, p. 85.

[47] Joseph Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth: His Life, Times, and Teachings (1922, New York: Block Publishing, 1989), p. 51.

[48] Klausner 1922, pp. 52-53.

[49] Sanhedrin 43a. Quoted in McDowell 1979, p. 85.

[50] Klausner 1922, p. 20.

[51] Morris Goldstein, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition (New York: Macmillan, 1950), p. 101.

[52] McDowell 1979, p. 85.

[53] Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician (1978, New York: Barnes & Noble, 1993), p. 47.

[54] Charles Herford, Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (1903, New York: KTAV Publishing House, 1975), p. 41.

[55] McDowell 1979, p. 85. The passage is from Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a.

[56] Goldstein 1950, p. 23.

[57] Goldstein 1950, p. 30.

[58] McDowell 1979, p. 86.

[59] McDowell 1979, p. 86 and Klausner 1922, p. 27-28.

[60] McDowell 1979, p. 86.

[61] Klausner 1922, p. 28.

[62] Ibid.

[63] Herford 1975, p. 94.

[64] Quoted in Herford 1975, p. 94.

[65] Herford 1975, p. 94.

[66] McDowell 1979, p. 86.

[67] Ibid.; McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 69.

[68] Herford 1975, p. 45.

[69] McDowell 1979, p. 86.

[70] Klausner 1922, p. 38, cites "Dikduke Sof'rim to Aboda Zara, edited by Dr. Rabinovitz from the Munich MS".

[71] John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (New York: Doubleday, 1991), p. 97.

[72] Meier 1991, pp. 96-97.

[73] Quoted by Edwin Yamauchi 1995, p. 21..

[74] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 70.

[75] Goldstein 1950, p. 102.

[76] McDowell has the date as circa 112; Yamauchi states that the letter was written about 111; Robert L. Wilken dates the letter to 112. See McDowell and Wilson, p. 46; Yamauchi 1995, p. 216; and Robert L. Wilken, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them (New Haven: Yale, 1984), p. 15.

[77] Plinius Secundus, Epistles, X.96. The portion in italics is quoted in McDowell 1979, p. 83.

[78] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 48.

[79] Holding suggests that Pliny, as a former "state priest," would have had firsthand knowledge of the historicity of Jesus. However, there are two problems with that view. First, Pliny makes it clear in his letter to Trajan that he was quite ignorant of Christians. When Pliny needed to deal with the Christians, he did not know what to do; he turned to Trajan for advice. He wrote, "It is a rule, Sir, which I inviolably observe, to refer myself to you in all my doubts; for who is more capable of guiding my uncertainty or informing my ignorance?" Furthermore, Pliny acknowledged that he did not have an understanding of Christians until he interrogated the deaconesses. (Holding objects that prior to torturing the deaconesses, Pliny "knew that Christianity was a 'cult,' for he refers to investigations in which 'several forms of the mischief came to light.'" However, Pliny's reference to 'investigations' is a reference to his interviews of Christians during the trials; Pliny had no knowledge of Christians prior to those trials.) Finally, consider Pliny's off-hand reference to Christian belief: "For whatever the nature of [the Christians'] creed might be." These are not the words of a man with prior knowledge of Christianity.

Second, if it were really true that priests would have investigated Christians, Holding should be able to provide multiple examples of Roman priests investigating Christianity. He has produced nothing of the sort. Twice I have asked Holding to produce any evidence that Roman priests investigated Christians; Holding has completely ignored my requests. (Indeed, in his rebuttal to me, Holding does not even acknowledge my request!) Furthermore, in private correspondence, ancient historian Richard Carrier provided the following counterexample to Holding's unsupported claim:

Consider, for example, Plutarch, a prominent priest and elder contemporary of Pliny, whose voluminous writings almost entirely survive--and of those that don't we still have all the titles: never once does Plutarch ever mention Christians, even though he went out of his way to write on many religious subjects, even to attack popular superstitions and foreign cults. On Superstition and Advice to Bride and Groom reveal a serious concern with superstitions and unsavory religions and a desire to elaborate and oppose them. On Isis and Osiris, On the E at Delphi, On the Oracles of the Pythia, On the Decline of Oracles, On the Slowness of Divinities to Anger, On the Demon of Socrates, etc., prove his interest in researching or discussing foreign or exotic religious views. Platonic Questions, On the Repugnant Beliefs of Stoics, Against the Stoics, Against Colotes, Table Talk, and so on, all show Plutarch to have had a keen concern to investigate and attack theological opinions opposed to his own. Also of note is the conspicuous absence of priests presenting evidence for Pliny's prosecutions, even though Pliny mentions (and no doubt exaggerates) the decline of attention to local temples as a result of the Christian fad. Instead, Pliny has no accusers at all, only anonymous lists, and must investigate the matter himself, on the spot. Also worthy of note is the college of silversmiths in Acts: the priestesses of Artemis are again conspicuously absent, and it is only the smiths, who make her statues, that get all riled up (although even they make no effort to "investigate" Christians but simply seek to trump up charges against them).

In direct response to this point, Holding objects that "Plutarch never had a situation like Pliny's to handle, where he had to make judgments upon Christians." However, this is irrelevant to Holding's claim that Pliny, as a former state priest, would have had prior knowledge of Christianity. This is only relevant to Pliny's role as Governor which, as we've seen, provides no support for Holding's conjecture.

In short, Holding has provided no evidence whatsoever that contemporary Roman priests (prior to the third century) investigated Christianity. In contrast, we've seen one example of a contemporary Roman priest (Plutarch) who did not investigate the Christians. As Carrier concludes, "Priests were NEVER involved in investigating Christians and would have had no interest in someone else's cult. Only magistrates are involved." See Holding, n.d.; idem, "A Slightly Shorter Concerto" (<URL:http://www.integrityonline15.com/jpholding/tekton/ajinod_05.html>, March 23, 2000), spotted April 19, 2000.

[80] Wilken 1984, p. 16.

[81] France 1986, p. 43.

[82] Tacitus, Annals XV.44.

[83] Gordon Stein denied the authenticity of this passage, arguing: (1) there is no corroborating evidence that Nero persecuted the Christians; (2) there was not a multitude of Christians in Rome at that date; (3) 'Christian' was not a common term in the first century; (4) Nero was indifferent to various religions in his city; (5) Nero did not start the fire in Rome; (6) Tacitus does not use the name Jesus; (7) Tacitus assumes his readers know Pontius Pilate; (8) the passage is present word-for-word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus. However, Stein's arguments are extremely weak. At best, (1), (2), and (5) only cast doubt on the reliability of the passage; these are not good reasons for rejecting the authenticity of the passage. (3) and (4) are likewise irrelevant. Contrary to what Stein claims, (6) and (7) suggest that Pontius Pilate might have been relatively unknown. Finally, (8) is irrelevant. The fact that a later author expanded the passage in no way makes it probable that theoriginal passage was interpolated. Furthermore, there are good reasons for accepting the authenticity of this passage: the anti-Christian tone of the passage, the scapegoat motif, the Latin style, and the integration of the passage with the story. Stein's argument for interpolation is completely unconvincing. See Stein 1982.

[84] Harris 1985, p. 351.

[85] I owe this point to Richard Carrier.

[86] Norman Perrin and Dennis C. Duling, The New Testament: An Introduction (Second ed., New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1982), p. 407, quoted by Earl Doherty in private correspondence.

[87] See Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin, Missouri: College Press, 1996), p. 189; and McDowell and Wilson 1988, pp. 50-51.

[88] See Wells 1999, pp. 198-200; France 1986, p. 23; and E.P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus (New York: Penguin, 1993), p. 49.

[89] Holding 2000.

[90] McDowell and Wilson 1988, pp. 50-51.

[91] See Grant 1995, pp. 40-43 and Tacitus: The Annals of Imperial Rome (Penguin Books, 1973), p. 18; Bruce Chilton and Craig A. Evans, Studying the Historical Jesus (London: E.J. Brill, 1994), p. 24; Ronald Mellor, Tacitus (New York: Routledge, 1993), pp. 20, 44-45; Arnaldo Momigliano, The Classical Foundations of Modern Historiography (Berkeley: U. of California Press, 1990), pp. 111-2; Donald Martin, Tacitus, (Berkeley: U. of California Press, 1981), p. 211; and Ronald Syme, Tacitus (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1958), pp. 281-282.

[92] Mellor 1993, p. 44 no. 56.

[93] Grant 1995, pp. 98-99.

[94] See K Wellesley, Greece and Rome (1954), pp. 13-26; D.R. Dudley, The World of Tacitus (London: Secker & Warburg, 1968), p. 19.

[95] Mellor 1993, p. 44.

[96] Wilken 1984, p. 49.

[97] Mellor 1993, p. 32.

[98] Mellor 1993, pp. 33-34.

[99] Contrary to what Holding suggests, I am not claiming that "If Tacitus incorrectly reported something, that would not affect his prestige and honor." Of course it would! Rather, my point was that if Tacitus correctly reported an uncontroversial, incidental detail (like the historicity of Jesus) without conducting an investigation to verify the truth of that detail, that would have been no strike against Tacitus' reliability as a historian according to the standards of ancient historiography.

[100] In direct response to this objection, Holding counters that (1) Tacitus was "always" careful to identify when he was reporting rumors, yet the relevant passage does not contain such a qualification, and (2) since "nearly everything Tacitus reports has a moral context," consistent application of my criteria would force the historian to discard nearly all of Tacitus' work. Let's consider these objections in order.

Turning to (1), Holding seems to assume that if Tacitus had not investigated the historicity of Jesus, Tacitus would have believed the historicity of Jesus was an unsubstantiated rumor. But why should anyone hold that assumption? Normally a person refers to a story as a "rumor" if and only if there is doubt concerning the truth of that story. Consider an analogy. No one refers to the historicity of the Prophet Mohammed as a "rumor" because no one denies the historicity of the Prophet Mohammed. Similarly, since there is no evidence of anyone doubting the historicity of Jesus at the time Tacitus wrote, Tacitus would have had literally no reason to believe that the mere existence of Jesus was a "rumor." Indeed, at the time Tacitus wrote, the historicity of Jesus was such a non-issue that Tacitus did not even address the matter as such; rather, Tacitus simply referred to the crucifixion of 'Christus,' which implies the historicity of Jesus!

But suppose, for the sake of argument, Tacitus would have considered the historicity of Jesus a "rumor" unless he (Tacitus) personally investigated the matter. We would be engaging in an argument from silence if we argued that, because Tacitus never qualifies his reference to Christus as a "rumor," Tacitus had researched the existence of Jesus. Of course, some arguments from silence are sound, so we cannot dismiss Holding's objection (1) simply because it relies on an argument from silence. The crucial question is this: if Tacitus had considered the historicity of Jesus a rumor, would he have said so? Holding declares, "I have already noted in Tekton 1-1-1 that Tacitus' scruples and concern for accuracy were such that he always indicated when he reported rumors as such" (my italics). Immediately we may note the 'absolutism' in Holding's position. In order to rule out the possibility that Tacitus did not investigate the historicity of Jesus, Holding has to claim more than just that Tacitus usually or often identified rumors as such; Holding must claim that Tacitus always identified rumors as such. Yet, when we turn to Tekton 1-1-1, the only evidence which even specifically addresses rumor as such is a quotation of a single Tacitean scholar, Mellor. Mellor wrote that Tacitus "distinguishes fact from rumor with a scrupulosity rare in any ancient historian." This does not support Holding's assertion that Tacitus "always" identified a rumor as such. Indeed, as Carrier pointed out, Mellor's statement is ambiguous: "scrupulosity" relative to other ancient historians can still mean much less than we would expect of a modern historian.

Holding also attempts to dodge his burden of proof, when he asks for a "direct proof that Tacitus reported a rumor as a fact knowing that it was merely a rumor." Remember that Holding is the one making a claim; Holding asserted that Tacitus "always" identifies rumors as such. Moreover, a moment's reflection will reveal the absurdity of Holding's request: if "Tacitus reported a rumor as a fact knowing that it was merely a rumor," we would have no way of knowing that. It is only when Tacitus identifies a rumor as such that we know a rumor was involved! Thus, at most we can only say that there are instances in which Tacitus identifies rumors as such. This tells us absolutely nothing about the number of instances in which Tacitus does not identify a rumor as such.

According to Ronald Martin (Tacitus, 1981, pp. 208-9), Tacitus claims that it is "my intention to follow my sources where they are unanimous but where they have given different reports I will record them under their names" (Ann. 13.20) yet he often does not uphold this "intention." But assume for the sake of argument that Tacitus always fulfilled his "intention." Since there is no evidence that anyone ever denied that 'Christus' was the founder of Christianity, this suggests that there would have been no contemporary reports which would have denied the historicity of Jesus. Thus, according to Tacitus' own methodology, he would not have named his source(s).

Holding alleges that "it is debatable whether, and to what extent, [Tacitus] fulfilled his intentions" because "a good deal of his source material is lost to us." Holding should compile a list of every source that Tacitus names in the Annals and Histories; if he did, he would discover that Tacitus almost never names his sources. According to Carrier, "We thus cannot know what he thought a 'rumor' was as opposed to a 'reliable' oral report."

As Carrier told me in private correspondence, that Tacitus would not identify his statement as a rumor "would be so obvious to anyone widely familiar with ancient historiography in general that they would be astonished at the notion that one had to prove it!" Holding's error is certainly understandable; Holding is a librarian, not an ancient historian. Yet, given this, it appears that many of Holding's own words can be used against him. To paraphrase: "Holding is working outside of his field. Ancient historians have the breadth of judgment and background to know that Holding's argument is bogus; that Holding uses such an argument indicates Holding's radical unfamiliarity with ancient historiography in general."

As for (2), I again can't resist using Holding's own words against him: his objection is not the product of careful thought, or of a genuine understanding of what I actually wrote. I did not write that Tacitus always repeated false information whenever he told a story in a moral context; rather, I stated that in such a situation Tacitusmight be willing to do so. Therefore, Holding's objection that a consistent application of my "criteria would mean having to ashcan almost all of Tacitus' work" is false. Furthermore, Holding seems to have missed the point of the relevant Mellor quotation: relaying rumors, even when they are identified as such, "can be irresponsible history" when they are used to defame another person. In other words, Mellor is criticizing Tacitus on this point. Sometimes just the introduction of an allegation is all it takes to damage a person's reputation. Even if the allegation ultimately turns out to be false, the damage will have already been done. Mellor writes, "Tacitus is content to use the rumors to besmirch by association Livia and Tiberius who, whatever their failings, never displayed the deranged malice of an Agrippina and a Nero." That is to say, Tacitus identified a rumor as such in order to slander the reputations of Livia and Tiberius. If that is typical of the way in which Tacitus employs rumors, then that would be yet another reason why Tacitus had not qualified the historicity of Jesus as a rumor. Tacitus' off-hand reference to the crucifixion of 'Christus' (which presupposes the historicity of that 'Christus') did not serve that rhetorical role.

Despite all of Holding's hand waving about Tacitean scholars, Holding is simply unable to produce a single Tacitean scholar who directly states that Tacitus probably investigated the historicity of Jesus. Holding quibbles that Benko says Tacitus would have looked into the origin of Christianity, but that is not the same thing as investigating the historicity of Jesus. To make another analogy with Mormonism: I can investigate the claims of Joseph Smith without investigating whether Joseph Smith ever lived. In contrast, as we've seen, one Tacitean scholar, Mellor, has directly contradicted Holding's speculation concerning Annals 15.44. Indeed, I've also shown that Wilken--an ancient historian and a Christian familiar with the relevant passage--also denies that Tacitus was interested in Christianity. If Tacitus was not interested in Christianity, he definitely would not have been interested in the then non-issue of the historicity of Jesus. And I've quoted Holding himself who admits that "truthfully, there is no way to tell" where Tacitus obtained his information about Jesus. But this entails that Tacitus' general procedure as a historian provides us with no reason for believing that Tacitus had independent sources of information about the historicity of Jesus. See Holding 2000.

[101] Harris argues that the records "were secret so that even the senate needed special permission to consult them (Tacitus, Hist. 4.40)" Ibid., p. 352.

[102] Holding n.d.

[103] Grant 1995, pp. 39-40.

[104] F.R.D. Goodyear, Tacitus (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1970), p. 31f. Quoted in Grant 1995, p. 41.

[105] I owe this point to Richard Carrier.

[106] France 1986, p. 23.

[107] E.P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus (New York: Penguin, 1993), p. 49.

[108] William Lane Craig, "John Dominic Crossan and the Resurrection" The Resurrection: An Interdisciplinary Symposium on the Resurrection of Jesus (ed. Stephen T. Davis, Daniel Kendall, Gerald O'Collins, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997), p. 252, n. 4.

[109] Suetonius, Life of Claudius 25.4. Cited by McDowell, p. 83.

[110] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 52. Italics are mine.

[111] Ibid., p. 53.

[112] France 1986, p. 42.

[113] McDowell 1979, p. 83.

[114] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 53.

[115] France 1986, p. 40.

[116] Wells 1989, p. 20.

[117] McDowell 1979, p. 84.

[118] See Richard Carrier, "Jacoby and Müller on 'Thallus'" (<URL:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jacoby.html>, 1999); cf. Murray J. Harris, "References to Jesus in Early Classical Authors" in Gospel Perspectives: The Jesus Tradition Outside the Gospels Volume 5 (ed. David Wenham, Birmingham: JSOT Press, 1985), p. 360 n. 4.

[119] Richard Carrier, "Thallus: An Analysis" (<URL:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html>, 1999).

[120] See Murray J. Harris, "References to Jesus in Early Classical Authors" in Gospel Perspectives: The Jesus Tradition Outside the Gospels Volume 5 (ed. David Wenham, Birmingham: JSOT Press, 1985), pp. 343-44; E. Schürer, Geschichte des jüdischen Volkes im Zeitalter Jesu Christi III. Das Judentum in der Zerstreuung und die jüdische Literatur (Hildesheim: Olm, 1964 reprint of 1909 edition) III, 495; R. Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (Eng. tr. by A.H. Krappe, London: Methuen, 1931), p. 298; and Maurice Goguel, The Life of Jesus (Eng. tr. by O. Wyon, London: Allen & Unwin, 1933), p. 93. I should note that the Schürer, Eisler, and Goguel sources were referenced by Harris but are unavailable to me.

[121] Carrier 1999b.

[122] France 1986, p. 24. For a contrary view, see Harris 1985, pp. 343-44.

[123] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 73.

[124] Ibid., p. 35.

[125] Carrier 1999b.

[126] The more intrinsically improbable the historical claim, the greater the evidence we will need to accept that claim. In other words, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since the intrinsic probability of the alleged darkness following Jesus' crucifixion is almost nil, we are justified in requiring independent confirmation of this remarkable claim. Given that such confirmation is not available, we are justified in not accepting the claim.

[127] McDowell, p. 39.

[128] Private correspondence with Richard Carrier, January 30, 2000.

[129] Mysteriously, Holding claims that he "see[s] nothing that contradicts or overturns" what he and Glenn Miller have argued concerning Thallus. But Holding's rebuttal to me simply refers readers to Glenn Miller's essay on Thallus, which in turn is mainly concerned with matters of Thallus' and Africanus' general reliability as historians. Miller does not address the dating of Thallus' reference. However, in my essay, I quote Carrier's (1999b) cutting-edge scholarship which shows that there is no reason to assume that Thallus wrote in the first century, which severely undermines the evidential value of Thallus as a witness to the historicity of Jesus. If Holding wishes to defer to Miller's work on the matter that is certainly his prerogative, but the fact remains that Miller has not yet refuted Carrier's arguments. See Holding 2000.

[130] Quoted by McDowell 1979, p. 84.

[131] See Carrier 1999b; c.f. Martin Routh, Reliquiae Sacrae, 2nd ed. (vol. 2) 1846, quoted in Carrier 1999b; R.M. Grant, Eusebius as Church Historian (Oxford: Clarendon, 1980), pp. 99-110, quoted approvingly in Wells 1996, p. 45.

[132] Ibid.

[133] Wells 1996, p. 45.

[134] Quoted by F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1972), p. 114.

[135] Farrell Till, "The 'Testimony' of Mara Bar-Serapion" The Skeptical Review 1995 (4), p. ??. Republished electronically at <URL:http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1995/4/4mara95.html>. France 1986, p. 23 also questions whether 'wise King' refers to Jesus.

[136] Cf. France 1986, p. 24.

[137] Bruce 1972, p. 114, quoted by McDowell in McDowell 1979, p. 84. Emphasis is mine.

[138] Archibald Robertson, Jesus: Myth or History? (Second edition, London: Watts & Co, 1949), p. 87.

[139] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 54. Italics are mine.

[140] Till 1995.

[141] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p. 54.

[142] Holding n.d.

[143] McDowell, p. 82.

[144] Holding complains that my characterization of Mara Bar-Serapion's witness to the historicity of Jesus as virtually worthless is "a much too extreme position." This is completely misguided. A historical source either provides independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus or it does not. Given the uncertainty of the date of Bar-Serapion's letter and its historical inaccuracies, the letter is not valuable as a witness to the historicity of Jesus. The letter is a valuable historical source--e.g., it provides important evidence of non-Christian knowledge of Christian claims--but it is not valuable as a witness to the historicity of Jesus. (In the latest version of his reply to this essay dated May 10, 2000 Holding complains that I treat this matter as a "black and white" issue, but Holding never explains how this issue could ever be anything but a black and white issue. I agree that some witnesses to the historicity of Jesus are more valuable than others, but that does not in any way contradict my original claim that Bar-Serapion's letter "does not provide independent confirmation" of the historicity of Jesus.) See Holding, 2000.

[145] I quoted Grant's remark that Lucian, as a satirist, believed that "a good historian must have 'powers of expression.'" See Grant 1995, p. 99.

[146] Grant 1995, p. 27.

[147] Grant 1995, p. 70.

[148] Grant 1995, pp. 81,94.

[149] Holding denies this, arguing it is unlikely that Lucian would have relied on Christian sources for his information, given his "disdain" for Christians. However, this objection is multiply flawed. First, just because someone has "disdain" for Christians does not mean they are skeptical of literally everything they say. Again, I am extremely skeptical of Mormonism, but I'm willing to take the Mormon explanation for the origin of the term "Mormon" at face value! (Holding attempts to dismiss this analogy by arguing that Christian origins are tied to a public historical event of great significance, but one can be skeptical of that event without ever questioning the mere existence of Jesus. And Holding presents no evidence that Christianity was significant at the time that Lucian wrote.) In the absence of any evidence that Lucian or any other contemporary figure doubted the Christian explanation for the origin of the term "Christian," there is simply no reason to believe that Lucian would have conducted an investigation into the matter.

Second, even if we suppose that Lucian had non-Christian sources, there is no evidence that those sources were independent. Yet for Lucian's statement to count as independent confirmation for the historicity of Jesus, we need evidence that his knowledge of the historicity of Jesus was based upon independent sources. Given that Lucian never specifies his sources, Holding's conjecture is nothing but speculation. Lucian's "concern for accuracy" implies only that Lucian considered his source(s) reliable; it does not tell us that Lucian had independent sources. See Holding, n.d.

[150] I am grateful to Glenn Miller, Richard Carrier, Peter Kirby, and everyone who contributed to Jury for helpful suggestions on previous drafts of this essay.

[151] McDowell and Wilson 1988, p.